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Red Baron: Mad Otter Acquires Red Baron Series


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#1 Gremlin_WoH

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 09:48 AM


Breaking news! Mad Otter Games has acquired all rights to the Red Baron W.W.I flight simulation series in particular Red Baron, Red Baron II and Red Baron 3D. Some of the members of Mad Otter Games, namely Dynamix co-founder Damon Slye had worked on the original Red Baron already back in the days when they were employed with Dynamix.

Now there is another part of this story: as the source codes of Red Baron, Red Baron II and Red Baron 3D is missing (Vivendi who bought Sierra Entertainment is reported to not find the code anymore) Mad Otter Games is offering a finder's fee of US-$ 1500 to the first person to deliver the complete source code (the original C or C++ code).


Red Baron 3D - Title Screen  - (1998)


Mad Otter games recently has been working on a browser based W.W.I flight arcade game called Ace Of Aces (see our news). I am wondering what they are planning with the rights to the Red Baron Series, if they are going the arcade route like the unlucky successors to the Red Baron Series like Red Baron Arcade or if they are planning to do a high fidelity W.W.I flight sim as they did in the glorious old Dynamix days. Also the question is what they could do today with the source codes for 10 and 18 year old games. I mean starting form scratch would be easier and more promising for a new project.


Mad Otter Games Website


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#2 Trouble4u

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 02:29 PM

That is interesting. Who knows what they can do with the code but I imagine the big thing for them is the name.

#3 Dutch

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 09:57 AM

Smashing :lol: but we will wait!!!! I think they are going to release a WW1 game and only using the RB name, something like Redbaron4 "Rise of the Baron". I hope it will not be the the same disappointed quality as his on-line game!! :ph34r:

#4 Gremlin_WoH

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 09:53 PM

Here is what Damon Slye has to say:



Regarding the acquisition of the rights to the Red Baron Series I asked Damon Slye of Mad Otter Games about the future of the Series. Here is what he has to say:


It's a little early to release many details. Right now we're looking for the source code to Red Baron, Red Baron II, or Red Baron 3D. I don't know if we will be successful, but we are trying. If we found it, we would update the game to present day standards. I've always believed it's possible to make playable and historically authentic flight games. I would shy away from a pure action game. I have an entry here about this:

"In 1990 I started making historic flight simulations. Our first offering was Red Baron. We decided to make a World War I dogfighting game because biplanes have the best gameplay. Back then simulations tried to either be fun games or realistic simulations, but not both. I thought this was a false dichotomy, so I designed a game that was fun and realistic.

One design goal was to achieve psychological realism rather than documental realism. What I mean is that historical accuracy in a simulation should be measured by how close the player's mental challenges and choices are to the historical pilot's, rather than on how many gauges the aircraft had, where they were located, etc. Statistics and data are best expressed in books and photographs, whereas games are first of all interactive experiences."

Damon


So a successor for the Red Baron Series is planned in the future, possibly based on the original code. There seems to be so much valuable knowledge and work in the source code that starting from scratch seems a rather minor option. I will keep on following this subject and will inform you if there are new revelations.



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Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, highest scoring fighter ace in WWII (he never lost a wingman)

#5 Trouble4u

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 10:32 PM

Thanks Gremlin!

#6 Flybert

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 12:52 AM

this from Damon:

"I'm trying to figure out how to reconstruct this game and make it viable in 2009. We weren't looking for the Red Baron rights, it just suddenly dropped in my lap unexpectedly. .. rights bounced around from Dynamix to Sierra to Vivendi to Activision to GarageGames before unexpectedly finding its way back to me, like some crazy boomerang."

So what it looks like, is when Activision-Blizzard decided to shutter Sierra and abandon most of it's games/rights , they gave back Jeff Tunnell ( founder of Garagegames and co-founder of Dynamix) the Red Baron rights, and Jeff passed them on to Damon

Already posted this at SWWISA forum:

now that I can't get in trouble for having it ..

I've had, for a few years now, the source code for RBII circa rb2_1.5 sans graphics module

I'm in touch with Damon and have this available to him to download

also made him aware I/we have MCU.exe, Matilda.exe and TED.exe

I also have 'source' objects CD .. and of course all the original .3ds files

I'm not particularly interested in the $1500 as much as either helping to re-issuing RB3D in a more modern form OR more importantly, being involved with making a new Red Baron sim

#7 Trouble4u

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 01:18 AM

OMG Flybert! are you kidding!? You've had it all along!?

#8 Gremlin_WoH

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 10:16 AM

Quote

this from Damon:

"I'm trying to figure out how to reconstruct this game and make it viable in 2009.? We weren't looking for the Red Baron rights, it just suddenly dropped in my lap unexpectedly. .. rights bounced around from Dynamix to Sierra to Vivendi to Activision to GarageGames before unexpectedly finding its way back to me, like some crazy boomerang."

So what it looks like, is when Activision-Blizzard decided to shutter Sierra and abandon most of it's games/rights , they gave back Jeff Tunnell ( founder of Garagegames and co-founder of Dynamix) the Red Baron rights, and Jeff passed them on to Damon

It's amazing how this thing got passed around. I wonder why Jeff Tunnell did not have any interest in it?


Quote

Already posted this at SWWISA forum:

now that I can't get in trouble for having it ..

I've had, for a few years now,? the source code for RBII circa rb2_1.5 sans graphics module

I'm in touch with Damon and have this available to him to download

also made him aware I/we have MCU.exe, Matilda.exe and TED.exe

I also have 'source' objects CD .. and of course all the original .3ds files

I'm not particularly interested in the $1500 as much as either helping to re-issuing RB3D in a more modern form OR more importantly, being involved with making a new Red Baron sim

Lol ... I figured you would be the one to have the code as I have proof it was floating around outside the Dynamix building for a long time. Great to hear that you are the one to 'bring the baby home' :ph34r:

From Damon's answer to my questions I can see he is interested in making an 'update' as he calls it. It would be a nice move of him if he first would fix the most annoying bugs to keep the more or less disintegrating Red Baron Community with its loyal fan base together. Thus he would have a broad customer base for a commercial success of 'Red Baron - The Next Generation'.

Quote

"I'm trying to figure out how to reconstruct this game and make it viable in 2009."

2009 seems to me to be a very optimistic plan. We know - even in possession of the code - he will need at least 2 years to have a satisfying successor, 3 or 4 years to have a splendid and worthy successor. Look how neoqb is struggling right now with their new W.W.I flight sim and its current state. The Red Baron II source code from 1998 does not contain:

- Actual 3D graphics interface to DirectX9, 10 or 11, or OpenGL or both with shader code and such (note: RBII source code without graphics module, and even this was 2D)
- High poly 3D models and cockpits as well as ground objects and such.
- High resolution textures for planes and objects. OBD Software raised the bar to over 3200 historical accurate plane skins for Over Flanders Fields.
- State of the art sound. Would need new recordings.
- A state of the art Flight and Damage Model with improved physics system. neoqb raised the bar with its flight and damage model for RoF to new heights. RBII/3D code is still tabloid based. To reach RoF it needs to be at least partially fluid dynamics based.
- AI code needs improvements. For example AI is too predictable and also 'cheating' with normal FM when landing.
- Modern graphical user interface.
- Zeppelins :lol:
- Some other things I forgot or I do not know of

Working down this list alone will be a time consuming task.

With Over Flanders Fields Phase 3, Rise of Flight, First Eagles and possibly Canvas Knights there is mighty competition in a small market. Of course each of them has its strengths and weaknesses.


Cheers
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"It was my opinion that no kill was worth the life of a wingman ..."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, highest scoring fighter ace in WWII (he never lost a wingman)

#9 Flybert

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 11:59 PM

ok .. let answer some things here Gremlin

This source was given to possibly help SWWISA figure out some things .. the speadsheet on the FM parameters went to a couple of people first, and the code was made available to 3 other programmers, one not a SWWISA member, because I honestly felt they could derive something from it to help the community and modding effort .. and each did .. so it doesn't surprise me that "bits" showed up .. I authorised one of the people to share 'bits' if they thought it would be helpful .. I obviously knew who could be trusted :lol:

RBII code from late March 1998 is not going to be terribly useful in "upgrading" RB3D .. it's a poorly documented mess that took Dynamix from April till October 1998 to change into Red Baron 3D,
which still had bugs. Remember I was one of about 25 core beta testers through that whole process and Dynamix had all the experience dealing with RBII code already, all the inhouse tools, the complete history of the code

RBII went through 3 development teams starting in 1994, it's quite difficult to look at source code written by one programmer and know all the details and intent unless it's well documented .. it is not well documented in the header files nor change logs, most of the notes were made by the 3rd team as they converted to Win95 compatability.

RBII/3D is not table based flight model, it is (simplified) aerodynamic formula / physics based .. while RoF uses more complete aerodynamic and physics formulas .. to use the catch phrase 'fluid dynamics' is a bit funny, as that is what aerodynamic formulas define.

There's just alot more complexity and formulas you can use with a dual core 2.66ghz CPU with 2GB of 1066mhz memory than you can do with a 133mhz CPU with 16MB of 33mhz EDO or SIMM

Jeff Tunnell isn't interested because he is a very smart business person making great money with GarageGames .. I've been talking to Jeff since on and off since late 2000 when I became a GG member about helping get the RB rights and code .. he, understandably, had his focus elsewhere .. and remember Red Baron II/3D lost money (though only due to poor development management, too much spent advertizing, and quite buggy Red Baron II release that did not include some expected features, like the Zep)

Quote

With Over Flanders Fields Phase 3, Rise of Flight, First Eagles and possibly Canvas Knights there is mighty competition in a small market. Of course each of them has its strengths and weaknesses.

OFF has crap Multiplay (compared to say IL-2 set up) .. you really can't have a successful title without that .. you get no big 'buzz' publicly anymore without the MP crowd.

RoF has crap gameplay value .. period .. and it will take a long time to fix it up .. in some respects it may never happen

Not familiar enough with First Eagles to say

Canvas Knights has some potencial, but the problem there is it's a mod using hack tools to be published through a mod site. There is no intent on the part of CK team or AAA for it ever to be more than a free mod, and it's progressing slower than all the expectations built up for it

I don't believe a well built modern WWI sim is a 'small' market. That impression comes from the money loss of RBII/3D and the reluctance of anyone to do it correctly since

Original IL-2 Strumovik sold over 2 million units, the whole series sold probably around 5 million or more .. UbiSoft did a poll shortly after IL-2 Strumovik came out asking what scenario people wanted next .. 29% as I recall, said WWI, more than any particular WWII scenario

so to say it's a 'small' potencial market is wrong IMO, done correctly in a series of releases, no reason a WWI sim on the level of IL-2 1946 gameplay value could not do millions in sales over a few years .. there's a huge void in the games market for something "different"

I wouldn't be surprized if full on RB3D source code shows up however, it had to go *somewhere* and I hope Damon gets it

if acquired, certainly a new OpenGL graphics module would allow higher poly models and higher resolution graphics .. recompiling in a modern compiler and using current code analysation tools could fix some coding errors and give insight to the original programming, allowing some things to be added.

though obsolete now.. here were my and SWWISA thoughts on it all from 2003-2004 http://www.redbaronp.../playersed0.htm

I agree though, that a republished RB3D in whatever form, would only be useful in promoting a future release of the franchice, not viable product on it's own except pehaps as an inexpensive download only, not as a retail shelf product.

Damon is interested in a new Red Baron title, and I intend to facilitate that any way I can .. perhaps there will be an announcement in the next few weeks :ph34r:

#10 Gremlin_WoH

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 10:19 AM

Fly, very interesting information you are sharing here.

Quote

This source was given to possibly help SWWISA figure out some things

I only knew it was shared only I did not know who was the source. i just could guess who it was :lol:


Quote

RBII code from late March 1998 is not going to be terribly useful in "upgrading" RB3D .. it's a poorly documented mess that took Dynamix from April till October 1998 to change into Red Baron 3D,
...
RBII went through 3 development teams starting in 1993(?)
...

Someone was stating that a long time ago, I think it could be you. Having written C code myself in former times I know what it means to work with undocumented code. Therefore my code was always very well documented :ph34r: Having three teams working on the code does not help the cause.


Quote

RBII/3D is not table based flight model, it is (simplified) aerodynamic formula / physics based .. while RoF uses more complete aerodynamic and physics formulas .. to use the catch phrase 'fluid dynamics' is a bit funny, as that is what aerodynamic formulas define.

I thought Red Baron II/3D was tabloid based and I knew that at that time Flying Corps and Flight Unlimited were fluid dynamics based. At least partly. Because of the computing power at that time they were a mix between fluid dynamics based and tabloid based flight sims. Then Red Baron II/3D seems also to be a mix but with the improvement of using different air foils for the wings. As a matter of fact RoF is also a mix of fluid dynamics and tabloid based physics system just as IL-2 but the RoF system has its focus more on the fluid dynamics based site as - as you already stated - modern computer hardware can now take over more complex calculations. RoF's FM is excellent. I am in talks with a person who has flown replicas of the Dr.I and the D.VIII and she is very positive about the FM for the currently released planes. She also did flat turns in a Dr.I replica thus I will talk to her again when the RoF Dr.I comes out.


Quote

OFF has crap Multiplay (compared to say IL-2 set up) .. you really can't have a successful title without that .. you get no big 'buzz' publicly anymore without the MP crowd.

With Microsoft switching off its servers the situation got worse but the OFF community is as dedicated as the RB Community and they have now developed a stable MP play system. There is the problem of the latencies but at least 16 player co-op is possible and enjoyable and is done with self-written missions and also new planes and objects. I have tried this and I liked it. Dogfight mode may be not as good depending on the connection latencies of each single user. It is good in its own but compared to IL-2 you are right.


Quote

RoF has crap gameplay value .. period .. and it will take a long time to fix it up .. in some respects it may never happen

Currrently RoF does not deliver a solid single player feature for the die hard campaign simulation fan. And with co-op servers only there is a mass attraction missing.


Quote

Not familiar enough with First Eagles to say

Good single play experience and a dedicated community. The MP part is weak and it gets worse as Microsoft took out the DirectPlay network code from newer DirectX versions. So MP needs to be coded again.


Quote

Canvas Knights has some potencial, but the problem there is it's a mod using hack tools to be published through a mod site. There is no intent on the part of CK team or AAA for it ever to be more than a free mod, and it's progressing slower than all the expectations built up for it

Currently I have too less insight in CK but in my personal opinion it is not intended to reach the levels of modding (or better total conversion) as OFF does.


Quote

I don't believe a well built modern WWI sim is a 'small' market. That impression comes from the money loss of RBII/3D and the reluctance of anyone to do it correctly since
...
so to say it's a 'small' potencial market is wrong IMO, done correctly in a series of releases, no reason a WWI sim on the level of IL-2 1946 gameplay value could not do millions in sales over a few years .. there's a huge void in the games market for something "different"

Hmmmm, in my opinion the flight sim market is a smaller part of the whole gaming market. And the W.W.I flight sims are part of all civilian and military flight sims cmprised there. Reading the various flight sim forums I got the impression that generally spoken Jet Jockeys will rather stay in their genre and prop sim enthusiasts rather in their part. Granted there is a strong fluctuation between W.W.II and W.W.I mostly form the die-hard fans and to attract those people is a mission for each company going into the W.W.I genre.



I hope Damon has still the right spirit and I want to see Red Baron - The Next Generation' as badly as you. No matter of original source code being available or not.

If there may be an announcement I should be Damon's shadow during the next time B)
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Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, highest scoring fighter ace in WWII (he never lost a wingman)

#11 Flybert

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 06:10 PM

Quote

Currrently RoF does not deliver a solid single player feature for the die hard campaign simulation fan. And with co-op servers only there is a mass attraction missing.

There have have been huge changes in the gaming world, even in the last 5 years, mostly related to broardband online play and community communication

Il-2 setup fell right into the dynamic, in that mission creation often applies to both singleplay and multiplay, as does user custom skinning. Having a large MP co-op that can reasonably duplicate singleplay missions and multiday battles generates literally 1000s
of missions and skins and a large community that involves and appeals to those that mostly just want to improve their singleplay experience. So unlike combat games with a poor online component, where once you've done all the campaigns and missions or played a few 100 hours you shelve it, the communities for good singleplay simulation *only* games, the communities are smaller, interest wanes.

#12 Gremlin_WoH

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 07:09 AM

Quote

There have have been huge changes in the gaming world, even in the last 5 years, mostly related to broadband online play and community communication

But still the single player fraction should contain more people then the online fraction. At least I got the impression when reading different message boards. A majority of players is still preferring single play because with just little leisure time you want instant action without waiting for a group of people coming together and sitting in a co-op mission on the runway waiting that everyone else is joining in or when shot down waiting until the mission has ended. But the multiplay community sure isn't an elitist circle anymore as back then in the early 90s. Broadband and flatrates had the most impact, you are right.

Red Baron 3D MMP for example was one of the first mass multiplayer experiences and attracted a lot of people. But also in turn scared off a lot of people because of rude behaviour and bitching on the free-for-all servers and so on. It needed organized events in passworded servers to keep up a 'civilized' flight simulation and historical re-enacting experience. And still does so up to today.

And those are among the reasons why single play will be expected to be a vital part of every flight simulation that hits the market.
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"It was my opinion that no kill was worth the life of a wingman ..."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, highest scoring fighter ace in WWII (he never lost a wingman)

#13 Flybert

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 07:09 PM

My point is that the larger Singleplayer community is drawn online more and intermingle with the online players more, and because the mod community is quite melded in IL-2, it keeps singleplayer interest up for subsequent releases. The whole of the community and interest in the sim is much greater that the sum of singleplayers + multiplayers that would normally occur were the mission and mod building significantly different for SP and MP

IL-2 servers are also set up to discourage the poor behavior that might otherwise discourage singleplayers .. I called myself a 'n00b' on one server and was booted by the language filter, and there is almost always a server opp on the larger public servers to boot people

on some servers, you kill friendly .. auto boot .. 3 times and your autobanned. That's not to say their isn't an occasional griefer or person upset because thier skill level sucks and they get shot down repeatedly, but the whole attitude in an 8 year old IL-2 is completely different than what RB3D MMP had become.

#14 OvS

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 03:52 PM

Hi Guys,

Firstly...

Fly, it's good to see you again, I wish you would come around the OFF forum and jump in with us. It would be great to have you around and being a part of the OFF Community. Much like Gremlin does, the support from old timers like yourself, Burning Beard, Capt. Sopwith, Capt. Royce...etc.. is like a moral uplift to some of us on the team like myself and Shred.

As far as a RB3D revival... the tought that this could happen is no doubt interesting. The idea that the originator, the grand master of the WWI game niche stepping back in to the ring for another go is like watching Rocky VI. It's awesome to see, but really, will the end results be what we all have hoped for... and will it overpass every expectation.

Not being negative here, but I raise this points for the discussion:

1. RB3D has been THE bar to judge all challengers since it was released in 1998 - over 10 years ago. At this point... I don't know why... out of the box and unmodded, it's a total mess other than the Campaign Engine. Those of us that have modded it know first hand it was a lot of work to do so, and we didn't even have the code to work with. This was just plain reverse engineering the damn thing... all that HEX code!!! Damon set his own bar so high that he'd be competing against himself, as we all have, at the very least. But in 2009, soon to be 2010, what is the bar now? Honestly... it's not a rough guess anymore, it HAS to be authentic!! Take a look at games now, much like movies are... the players expect detail, history, realism and precision. There is a HUGE difference between Flight Simulator 2 on the C64 as compared to FSX on a modern PC. Users expect that out of the box, and on start-up of the game... not buying something to mod themselves, unless they really want to. I know that first hand, and man... it's tough to produce at that level.

2. Although what seems like an open market, is not so open after all. Because many users have been burned time and time again by games that claim to be WWI sims, or the best WWI experience, often turn out to be small in size, or arcade shooters at best. It has almost ruined the WWI niche completely by giving bad history lessons (all Dr.1's are red???), or games that are simply Console shooters at best. Can he create something that will be profitable, and as deep as the once mighty RB3D was? Will it surpass it? What about depth in the game? How many people will be interested in yet another attempt at a WWI game? RoF proved that there is interested... and yet.. many buyers, especially in the US markets, have dumped it in total frustration. So, can they deliver... in a sensible amount of time.

3. Next point... time... How long with this take? OFF has been an ever growing project for Winder and us at OBD for the past 5 years. It's STILL not complete. With a ton more planes to add, an aging CFS3 graphical engine as the backbone, and hordes of information yet to be added... we're still working as if it's day 1 with a punch-sheet a mile long yet to be complete. But... we do this on the side. So for most of us, it's a part-time gig. And all we did was make a massive historic mod for a game engine already completed. Now.. RoF... they went the opposite direction, looking to make a new graphics engine and dumping the Campaign side. It took them well over 5 years as well as some of the members of neoqb's group were also the same guys that were looking at doing Sikorsky Project with some of us SWWISA guys and that was what, 5 or 6 years ago? So it's taken them that long to get to where they are, and they have nothing on paper, or in any databased add-on to revel what OFF has. Good luck on that one.. It takes an insane amount of time to create what each group has done respectively (man, imagine if we combined games!!!). So what are the expectations of the new RB3D? Are they going to only focus on areas like Somme, or Flanders? What years? Will it be as big as OFF is? Tons of aces, individual skins? It's a lot of work, and will require a HUGE budget to take them through the long hours, to weeks, to months, to years. It can't be another short sell like RB3D was, being incomplete and having pictures of the team members to use as the pilot photos. Guessing on skins won't work either... Jasta 11 using Constaintin Kreftt's skin for the squadron skin isn't going to fly well with the level of knowledge out there of the perspective customers.

4. Is it viable? Can they create a whole new engine, and make it work? What planes will fly... what years will be involved, what countries, what areas. Time and time again I have seen guys try to make a patch, or an FM, or a DM and fail because they simply underestimate the amount of work involved... and that's missing family time, work around the house time.... RL time...

WWI is the HARDEST era to create a game for because it involves both high altitude, and low altitude graphics. You can't get away with IL2 land class crap anymore. The users want to feel the wind, feel the oil spray... all that and play a game worthy of a $35-50 price tag on a DVD.

Just my thoughts... I hope something comes out of it... we're all hoping.. and we're all here to help. If he knows better, there are lists of names that he can contact for help now. It's not something that can be done by 1 team and think that they will be considered experts without verification or not having read a single book to back-up the claim. This isn't 1998, it won't go over well with today's crowd.

Man... I think building a car from scratch would be easier than building a whole new dynamic campain, MMP, realistic, authentic, historic, immersive...etc...etc..etc.. WWI Combat simulator.


Whew.... I said a lot.... :ph34r:

All the best...

OvS

#15 Flybert

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 05:57 AM

OvS,

1. As far as SinglePlay, I suspect OFF is the 'bar' now, along with Western Front Patch with RB3D .. that is going to be tough to match

2. If the WWI sims produced didn't each have some glaring fault or lack some major element of gameplay, they would have done better in the market .. it's hard to come back from a buggy start, as in RBII and RoF .. RBII and RoF also suffered from poor development management that resulted in probably 2 years of development taking 4 years. Who would have thought a odd IL-2 Strumovik Russian WWII sim would have a chance against MS-CFS2 ? .. Instead the initial release sells over 2 million and the series maybe over 5 million and MS stops making flight sims

I'll skip 3. and 4. to ask:

What about WWI sim on IL-2 engine ?

not a *mod*, but a professional level effort to make a commercial sim with a *core* established studio and some remote participants ?

BTW, IL-2 engine can do dynamic shadows, and can do software rendering of stuff like grass on fields .. low alt detail is not really a problem .. there are 'old' trees and 'new' trees and you can remove the 'flat' texture 'tree' overlay

505 studios took IL-2 engine, modified it, and it had enough eye candy enabled in it, including the addition of reflective lighting, to recently release "Birds of Prey" for the console market. And it seems to be doing well despite a couple of fairly serious, but patchable flaws

I really don't think IL-2 engine outdated completely, but it sure has the gameplay potencial, and almost all bugs worked out .. IL-2 1946 still sells reasonably well and I haven't seen one serious bug, even loaded with a beta patch and a huge mod package

Whether proven existing engine, or new engine, let's say Torque 3D, I do think the way to go on a new WWI release would be in a series like IL-2 .. only you start with 1917, Most of Western Front with about 25 flyable planes .. say you release for Xmas season .. then 6 months later cover late 1915 through 1916 adding another 20 planes or so, then for Xmas the following year, you release 1918 with another 20 planes AND a whole war collection with all 60-70 planes and English channel .. to keep up interest, you update for free with a few new planes and improvements every few months .. if it does well, you move onto other fronts.

Just would take less time with a proven, stable engine with proven multiplay capacity, than starting with a new engine .. where indeed it might take 2 years to get out a first release, even with a full time studio of 20 production staff and a solid game design that's followed from beginning to end.

If your going to do a full whole war time full Western Front and Baltic Sea with 80-120 planes, ships and u-boats .. then you might as well take 5 years and release in 2014 at the 100 years anniversery of WWI ..

But who in their right mind would spend the time and money to do this with Torque 3D or Storm of War engine without first testing the market ?

Because of poor quality and/or lack of game features (in reference to time released), the WWI market really has not been properly tested since 1991-1992, when Red Baron(1) was THE most popular computer game

WWII was considered a small and diminishing market in 2001 as well, however when done well .. it sold millions, and didn't even do Western Front !

We'll get a small 'taste' of the possibilities with Canvas Knights soon, but I don't, for various reasons, see CK evolving into a commercial project in the future, where there is a reasonable possibility Oleg might lend the IL-2 engine to a *new* WWI sim effort if he had confidence in the team developing it

best regards :ph34r:

Fly

#16 Dutch

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 02:39 PM

OvS do you have played the full RoF version????? I have OFF3 and RoF.

The problem in RoF is the game engine design is made for 4core system and not a dualcore!!! So what are they doing, yes running at max adjustments and using a Intel dualcore E6XXX and 8XXX-256mb Nvidia card!!!! This will give problems!!!!
Another point is the internet connection, to me, this must be a fast one and not the old Telephone line which causes stops in data transmissions. I have never any problems in playing RoF.

On the other hand, the graphic settings for OFF3 in CFS3conf is still a disaster :ph34r: so only a few players is running this game at optimum settings. But I must amid the WW1 flysim now is OFF3, for me RoF is still a arcade game. Were is the campaign mode in RoF, ooo this one, it is less then zero!!
Good work OFF3 guys!!!!

#17 Flybert

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 07:44 PM

latest news . though not news to all you :lol:

http://www.madottergames.com/

#18 Gremlin_WoH

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 08:50 PM

Flybert, on October 30, 2009 08:44 pm, said:

latest news . though not news to all you :lol:

http://www.madottergames.com/
I hope someone who has the code is aware of all of this and is also willing to contribute to the future of this great Flight Sim Series.

Keeping fingers crossed B)
Gremlin_WoH
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